As a monster storm bursts upon Mid-Atlantic America, prayers ascend for God’s protection, particularly for the most vulnerable: those who are ill, handicapped or elderly, along with children and single mothers.
For many, Hurricane Sandy evokes flashbacks of the 2005 Asian tsunami. During that tragedy I was a pastor in suburban Sacramento, California. Having heard that many unchurched people were praying for tsunami victims, we thought it would be good to invite them to pray together with us. So we rented an electric sign trailer and parked it in front of our church, welcoming anyone who wished to pray to join us that evening.
People driving by our church facility noticed the flashing sign. Some returned that evening, joining our church members in the dimly lit sanctuary. As soft music played, I began the service by asking attendees to share their thoughts and sympathies about the suffering in Thailand. Then we would pray together. Afterward, anyone who wished could contribute toward tsunami relief by dropping an offering into a box while exiting the sanctuary.
Members and guests began sharing their poignant concerns for the Thailand victims. Suddenly one of our members on the front row waved his arm for attention. I called upon him to share his sentiments, and he jumped up with an open Bible and declared excitedly: “This tsunami is an amazing fulfillment of Christ’s prediction that there would be natural disasters in the last days! Jesus is coming soon!” he announced to members and guests alike. He then proceeded to read eagerly from Matthew chapter 24 about the signs of Christ’s coming.
I stopped him. “There is a time and place to study Bible prophecy and the signs of Christ’s coming—but not tonight. We’ve come here to grieve and to pray for suffering humanity.” Despite his obvious disappointment, we proceeded to do just that.
Ironically, our prophecy enthusiast may himself have been fulfilling a Bible prediction. Jesus warned that in the last days “the love of many will grow cold” (Matthew 24:12). Christ wasn’t just thinking about people who break God’s laws with hardened hearts. Believers also can harbor insensitive souls, caring more about the mathematics of fulfilled prophecy than they do about those who are already suffering a time of trouble. Indeed, some Sabbatarians prefer to argue about the 7th day versus the 1st day of the week rather than come together to rest in Christ through corporate worship and fellowship. For them, the Adventist sanctuary message is more about computing 2300 symbolic days than it is about a literal place of refuge in our great high priest.
Please don’t misunderstand my concern. Being a prophecy student myself, I affirm those who are alert to the fulfilling of times and seasons. We should all watch eagerly for signs of Christ’s coming. But more important than what we know about the last days is how much we care in such a time as this.
So when it comes to Biblical interpretation, let’s do the math, yes. But not at the expense of being the loving Christians that God has called us to be. We can and must love the Lord, not just with our minds but with our hearts—and then go forth into the community, workplace and classroom to love our neighbors as ourselves.
There is a time to study, and a time to pray. With millions of Americans facing the ravages of Hurricane Sandy, this is a time to pray.
I appreciate your blog post. As it says to mourn with the mourner, and rejoice when friends rejoice, this clearly goes with what you are saying. Thanks Martin.
@cassialise Jer. 7: 16 “So do not pray for this people nor offer any plea or petition for them; do not plead with me, for I will not listen to you. 17 Do you not see what they are doing in the towns of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? 18 The children gather wood, the fathers light the fire, and the women knead the dough and make cakes of bread for the Queen of Heaven. They pour out drink offerings to other gods to provoke me to anger. 19 But am I the one they are provoking? declares the LORD. Are they not rather harming themselves, to their own shame? 20 “‘Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: My anger and my wrath will be poured out on this place, on man and beast, on the trees of the field and on the fruit of the ground, and it will burn and not be quenched.The issue – again – is to whom should we be MORE sensitive — the suffering of people, or God’s anger towards those people?
Always a bit dangerous, I think, to pull angry Old Testament passages out of context and apply them as though they’re current. Jesus gave quite a different picture of how to treat our enemies, and His.
@LorenSeibold The revelation of Jesus the Christ tells us He will pour out plagues and hardships on the people the like of which have never been seen. That is how He plans to treat His enemies.Sounds pretty “old testament” to me. And you have a huge flaw in your logic, Loren: if Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and for ever, and if He is God incarnate — then Jesus is actually the one who spoke those “angry” words, (which were not taken out of context). Cherry-picking select verses gives an extremely skewed perception of God, salvation, and what it means to be “a holy priesthood”, and people should really learn to examine the Entire Context of Scripture – both the “old” and the “new” testament, because it is *all* the word of God – and God’s words are eternal, and never changing, nor is His character, nor is His requirements for righteousness, holiness and moral purity. This is a highly important lesson to learn and apply if we don’t want to be caught on the wrong side of God’s wrath. (Rev. 18:5)
Christ tells us to love others. He is the judge, not I. My job is different. I will still have love for you also. @Penfold
Christ tells us to love others. He is the judge, not I. His job is different than mine. Even though I feel attacked, through Christ I can choose to still love you also @Penfold
Christ tells us to love others. He is the judge, not I. My job is different than his. Even though I feel attacked, through Christ I can still choose to love you just the same.
43 “You have heard that it was said, You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.
@Penfold
@cassialise
[Quote]The issue – again – is to whom should we be MORE sensitive — the suffering of people, or God’s anger towards those people?[/Quote]
Who tells us that we see the Anger of God and not the power and anger of Satan who knows his time is running out?
@Heimo @cassialise That’s my point, Helmo. If we don’t know – then we have a problem. But there is also another “option” which you have not considered.
Very much appreciate your thoughts. There is a time for everything.
Outstanding article Pastor Martin! I couldn’t agree with you more. Thanks so much for taking the time to share! Peace and Joy!
Time to pray, AND TIME TO LOVE those in need, with our acts of love.
you have a huge problem with your logic: if a storm – ANY storm, be it a tsunami or Sandy – is a revelation of God’s wrath/rebuke – then WHY would those whom love God mourn for those whom HE chooses to rebuke? That implies finding fault with God’s decision to rebuke those people. God BLESSED Phinehas for killing an Israelite while he lewdly interacted with a Midianite woman 11 “Phinehas son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron, the priest, has turned my anger away from the Israelites; for he was as zealous as I am for my honour among them, so that in my zeal I did not put an end to them. 12 Therefore tell him I am making my covenant of peace with him. 13 He and his descendants will have a covenant of a lasting priesthood, because he was zealous for the honour of his God and made atonement for the Israelites.”Who among you is zealous for God’s honor??? You mourn for the suffering of PEOPLE – who rebel against God, who care nothing for His Word, holiness, or repentance.
Really?? to whom should Christians be more sensitive: people who may be walking in rebellion towards God – or God, Himself?
“About this time Jesus was informed that Pilate had murdered some people from Galilee as they were offering sacrifices at the Temple. “Do you think those Galileans were worse sinners than all the other people from Galilee?” Jesus asked. “Is that why they suffered? Not at all! And you will perish, too, unless you repent of your sins and turn to God.
And what about the eighteen people who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them? Were they the worst sinners in Jerusalem? No, and I tell you again that unless you repent, you will perish, too.”” (Luke 13:1–5, NLT)
@Martin Weber Your “rebuttal” does not address EITHER of the direct questions I asked: 1. WHY would those whom love God mourn for those whom HE chooses to rebuke? 2. To whom should “Christians” be MORE emotionally sensitive: God, or people?Your comment is nothing but a dodge, avoiding answering direct questions. (If this is a double post, I apologize- but interestingly, I’m not seeing my other comment…)
@Martin Weber You ask, “Why would God mourn for those He chose to rebuke?” Well, why did Jesus weep over lost Jerusalem and its corrupt leaders? The answer may be simply the fact that “God is love.” (1 John 4:8).
P.S. He also asks us to love our enemies.
@Martin Weber
You read my questions incorrectly, Mr. Weber: Please read it again, and answer the specific question.Also, to the best of my knowledge, there is no where in Scripture that God Himself or Jesus is “weeping” over those whom He rebukes; if there is please show it to me.Scripture indicates that by the times He gets to the point of rebuking people directly, He’s highly disinclined to feel compassion, gentleness or mercy towards them. At the point when He begins a rebuke, He’s not weeping.(Jer. 13:14, Ps. 78:49, Is. 13:9)
I would like to see your biblical support for the premise that Jesus wept over *leaders* in Jerusalem, and wept in response to their rebellion and corruption.In regards to your postscript: Did Paul demonstrate “love” when he handed Hymenaeus and Alexander over to Satan (1 Tim 1:20), or as he instructed as recorded in 1 Cor. 5:5?
Who said this storm was a rebuke from God? Who said it represents His wrath/judgement upon the people on the east coast? Who says the many of those who’ve lost homes or family members were all wicked? What if God chooses to rebuke you for some sin? Should we not pray for you? Love you? Care about what happens to you? Your destiny?
How do you square your thinking with passages like the following?:
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect” (Matt. 5:43-48).
Who said this storm was a rebuke from God? Who said it represents His wrath/judgement upon the people on the east coast? Who says everyone who’s lost their home or a family member is wicked?
And, just for the sake of discussion, let’s say this was an act of judgment (which I do not believe). What if God chose to rebuke you for your sins? Should we not pray for you? Love you? Care about what happens to you? Your destiny?
How do you square your thinking with passages like the following?:
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect” (Matt. 5:43-48).
Who said this storm was a rebuke from God? Who said it represents His wrath/judgement upon the people on the east coast? Who says everyone who’s lost their home or a family member is wicked?
And, just for the sake of discussion, let’s say this was an act of judgment (which I do not believe). What if God chose to rebuke you for your sins? Should we not pray for you? Love you? Care about what happens to you? Your destiny?
How do you square your thinking with passages like the following?:
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect” (Matt. 5:43-48).
@Randy Harmdierks you asked :Who said this storm was a rebuke from God? Who said it wasn’t? Knowing what God is doing is the responsibility of the disciple, so that s/he can act in agreement with God.Mr. Weber says, “this is a time to pray,” but pray for what? Because what we pray should be in agreement with, not contradictory, to continuing whatever God is doing. And the questions that needs to be answered are “Is Hurricane Sandy a rebuke from God, and if so, to whom, and why.” The answer to that determines our response to the situation.
I think we can agree that in all situations, we should pray that God’s will be done. And what is His will? Is it for us to be salt and light to all humanity, or only to those we perceive as being faithful to God? If it’s the latter, how do we establish who is faithful and who is not so that we may, as you suggest, adjust our response to the situation? I would suggest that since God alone knows the heart, we are not qualified to make such a determination. “…The LORD does not look at the things people look at. People look at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart” (1 Sam. 16:7).
I don’t believe the question that needs to be answered is whether or not the storm was a rebuke. I believe the question that needs to be answered is: As Christ’s ambassadors, does our response to tragedies like this reflect the love of Christ? Regardless of whether or not it was a rebuke, if our response is devoid of love, we have failed. For if God does rebuke, He does so for the purpose of drawing people to Himself (see Rev. 3:19 and surrounding context. Also see context/purpose of every Jewish exile).
I think that when–especially when–an individual (or a society) is not walking with God, it is a time for prayer…prayer for the Holy Spirit, for revival and reformation, for the enemy’s schemes and devises to be frustrated, for high places to be torn down, for the Earth to be lighted with God’s glory, and yes, for comfort and peace and miracles of restoration (of relationships as well as both material and spiritual needs). This can be done in the context of God’s will (see Christ’s prayer: “Let this cup pass from me…”). Doing this not only fulfills our obligation to love, but it also brings glory to God’s name.
@Randy Harmdierks A disciple’s first and foremost responsibility is loving God – and yes, I think that *requires* people to know what He is about. Knowing His times and seasons is the *only* way to operate in unity with Him, either in activity, or prayer, That said, being “salt” and “light” to “all humanity” is a double-edged sword. Salt can sting a wound, and light burns the eyes of those who prefer darkness.Which means, being ‘salt” and ‘light” doesn’t always means doing what makes people feel “happy” or “loved” – its doing what God wants done.My issue throughout this discussion isn’t ‘prayer’ – it’s what should be prayed. All the examples of prayers you cited (Holy Spirit, revival, etc.,) follow a specific path of thought and imply a certain attitude towards those who experience hardship.But there is another path of prayer – that which asks God’s to withhold His comfort and provision, *because* the people were being rebuked, and had not repented.I am putting forth the spiritual stand that unless a person knows first what God is about, they should NOT be praying for God’s mercy, kindness, or compassion UNTIL it is determined whether or not that Sandy was a – and if a person doesn’t know whether Sandy was a rebuke or not, then the primary prayer responsibility of a disciple is, “God, was this a rebuke?” If the church doesn’t *start* there, and people are praying contrary to God’s times, seasons, and effort, God is not obligated to answer their prayers anyway.
I agree completely with your first sentence. Regarding times and seasons, well, I’m an Adventist…I guess you could say I agree with the vital importance of understanding prophecy. That being said, I also believe that Peter meant it when he said we should not only look for but hasten the coming of Christ (see 2 Pet. 3:12). What we do (or fail to do) actually does impact God’s schedule (I don’t believe that threatens His sovereinty).
You are correct to say that sometimes (often) being salt and light may make one uncomfortable (whether it be the recipient or the messenger). I never said our objective as salt and light should be to make people feel happy, content, warm & fuzzy, etc…we often confuse happiness and joy, don’t we? I disagree with you completely that one should not necessarily feel loved. Jesus’ objective was to show humanity God’s character–which is also our objective. God doesn’t love, He *is* love. This means even His harshest rebuke is done with love…so should ours be. Let’s not confuse “love” with “permissiveness.”
You’re right to say that sometimes God’s remody may be to withold comfort and/or provision. However, I disagree completely that we should not plead for His mercy for others before knowing every detail of what He’s doing. The Bible not only refutes that notion, but it provides examples of God’s agents interceding when there was absolutely no doubt that God was rebuking. For example, in Ex. 32 God tells Moses plainly of His intention to destroy the Israelites. Moses pleads for God to show mercy, and the result was that God spared them. Far from withholding love or intercession, Moses loved his people enough that he was willing to sacrifice his own salvation for theirs.
I believe in asking God to reveal His will. That being said, the problem with your suggestion as be-all/end-all is that we tend to incorrectly place God’s will in line with our own perceptions. That’s one reason two people asking for the same thing can get very different answers.
It seems then, that if one is to err it would be better to ask God for mercy he may choose to withhold than to neglect to ask God for mercy He would otherwise grant, if only we would pray. Rather than witholding intercession, waiting for God to prove He’s not bent on destroying people, we ought to instead do everything within our power to provide intercession until such a time as God tells us to stop praying (see Jer. 7 and 11).
@Randy HarmdierksI think it’s interesting, Randy, that you said in two different places that I am right, then continue by disagreeing with me. You said, “That being said, the problem with your suggestion as be-all/end-all is that we tend to incorrectly place God’s will in line with our own perceptions.” And how do you know that you, right now, are not guilty of doing that? over and over, people on this site keep saying, “But we need to pray!”” That’s not the issue: the issue is *What* is being prayed and *why*!?! I keep saying that the *f i r s t* thing people need to pray is to ascertain whether or not Sandy is a rebuke from God, because that foundation determines the appropriate follow-thru activities. I am telling you, flat out, that putting the cart before the horse is wrong. Praying for God’s mercy or His continued rebuke * both * are wrong, until the foundational question is answered. No matter what the *letter* of the Law says about prayer, disciples are supposed to *first* be in step and season with God, particularly their prayers. And that cannot be done, at all, until and unless people ask this extremely important question. And absolutely no one else is willing to acknowledge this value of this foundation.
@Randy Harmdierks You used the defense re: Moses praying for the Israelites: Moses pleads for God to show mercy, and the result was that God spared them. Far from withholding love or intercession, Moses loved his people enough that he was willing to sacrifice his own salvation for theirs.Nope. Wrong. Inaccurate understanding of Scripture. Moses’ argument was to defend God’s honor, Moses said, “Why should the Egyptians say, ‘It was with evil intent that he brought them out, to kill them in the mountains and to wipe them off the face of the earth’? (ex. 32:12) It just happens that the end result was to “Turn from (His) fierce anger; relent and do not bring disaster on (His) people.” But it wasn’t for the people’s sake that Moses asked for this; it was for the integrity of God’s name in the eyes of the world.
Productive discussion will not be possible if your paradigm demands I agree with you on every point or none. It shouldn’t surprise you that I would agree with certain aspects of your argument and not others.
Let’s stop with hypotheticals because it’s getting us nowhere. Have you received guidance from God as to whether or not this was a rebuke? If you haven’t yet received an answer, how long should you/we pray for neither mercy nor rebuke while people are hungry, thirsty, cold, naked, homeless, grieving over lost loved ones, etc? Where in scripture do you find support for such detached passivity?
If you did receive an answer, what was it and how has it impacted your ongoing prayers? Please provide specifics.
I’m going to suggest that everything we do as disciples ought to be primarily for the purpose of defending God’s honor. When Jesus summed up the law, he said as much. “Love God with all your…” But He continued… “The second is like it…” and proceeded to command us to have that kind of love for our fellow man. So, Penfold, Moses’ defense of God’s honor doesn’t (and shouldn’t) preclude a vested interested in God’s saving the people. I simply do not agree with you that Moses’ plea was not a plea of interecession every bit as much as for God’s honor.
@Randy Harmdierks specific examples of “detached passivity: – demonstrated by God: Ez. 20:21-39, Jer. 7: 12-34; Rev. 18: 1-4detached passivity of God’s servants as ordered by God: 1 Ki 17:1 (how much hardship do you think was caused in an agrarian society by a 3 1/2 year drought, as referenced in James 3:15?); 1 Cor. 5: 4-5, 1 Tim.5: 19-20 Process this, and when you have acknowledged that there is biblical support that indicates the righteousness of such prayers and acts, *then* I will tell you what answer I received, and how it affected my prayers.
@Randy Harmdierks you said, “I simply do not agree with you…” Just because you don’t agree doesn’t mean I’m wrong. You are choosing to read that passage through a specific set of intellectual filters based on a specific theology that you assume is correct because it was given to you by people you trust, and it agrees with your current understanding of God. But I read Scripture for what it says, weighed and measured to the *entire* context of Scripture, independent of *any* theological view. I ask the Holy Spirit to show me what it means, and **correct my understanding**. Then I test, and retest, what I have learned, to identify any flaw in the logic. I keep asking God to clarify and explain the often superficially contradictory elements of Scripture. Therefore, I have an understanding of God that is not based on *any* theological view – it is based on the whole context of Scripture.
@Randy Harmdierks My brother you statement : “independent of *any* theological view” is not possible. We all come from a theological view. I do, you do, and we all examine scripture in the crucible of our experience. The Hebrew open box logic makes room for all of the above concepts. the Pesat, the Resin, The Drosh, and the Sod are four different ways of examining the scripture. The pisot is what it meant to the person addressed by the writer. The Resin is an expanded view of the same scripture. The Drosh examines the same scripture from the standpoint of cyclical applications, and the Sod is the hidden meaning that may communicate to me alone. Only Western thinking is closed down to my view verses your vies linear thinking.. Many theological disputes could be dissolved if we were more Hebrew in our thinking, and less Western Greek Linear in our thinking.
@Pastor Randy Brehms @Randy Harmdierks You said, “We all come from a theological view. I do, you do, and we all examine scripture in the crucible of our experience.”I am saying that my “crucible of experience” has resulted in a “non-theological” understanding of Scripture. Do you know my training, my experiences, my spiritual gifts, or any specific influences I’ve had in my life? No?? Until you have evidence to the contrary, please respect what I say about myself. Otherwise, you are backhandedly calling me a liar, or crazy. You said, “Many theological disputes could be dissolved if we were more Hebrew in our thinking, and less Western Greek Linear in our thinking.” You see the problem. So what are you doing about it???
@Randy Harmdierks These verses don’t show me a detached or passive God, nor do they show me a detached or passive people of God. They show me a God who extends mercy even in rebuke. Even when He has to withhold comfort to get their attention, He provides a clear path to Him (whether or not the people walk that path is another matter). And, in examples where He asked His servants to withhold something, He gave clear instruction to do so (something suspiciously lacking in the case of Hurricane Sandy, even among the countless numbers of people who faithfully study the word of God and ask for His guidance in all matters).
We could throw verses at each other until Jesus comes. In the end, it seems to come down to “is the glass half full or half empty?” In fulfillment of Christ’s command to take care of the widows and orphans, feed the hungry, care for the poor, clothe the naked, etc., it seems fitting to me to show the world the character of Christ through these loving acts until it could be proven that He doesn’t want us to (which isn’t a problem when we study the Word, ask God for guidance and move forward in faith). It seems that from your perspective, we should withhold all of these things until it can be proven that He wants us to bestow them. My issue with your perspective is that it doesn’t fulfill our calling. It does the opposite (see Christ’s warning in Matthew 25). Further, telling an indifferent world that God is punishing them through storms (when we have no proof), as well as telling this to those who love God who happen to be victims of this tragedy, doesn’t help bring anyone to God but rather pushes them away.
Penfold, you’re right to say that just because I don’t agree with you, it doesn’t mean you’re wrong. However, it is also true to say that just because you don’t agree with me, it doesn’t mean I’m wrong.
As you stated in your response to Pastor Brehms, since he doesn’t know you or the specific training/experiences of your life, you’d prefer if he respected what you say about yourself. It would be nice if you would do the same for me rather than suggesting that I simply swallow the info passed on to me by those I trust.
The notion of any point of view being devoid of intellectual filters or theological bias is simply not logical, rational, or even possible. Any good Bible student should weigh and measure what Scripture says based on the context of its entirety and ask the Holy Spirit for guidance and correction. Unfortunately, that doesn’t preclude our ability to get it wrong. To have your own theological view is still to have a theological view, subject to error just like everyone else.
There is simply no possibility for productive discussion when any party within the discussion believes themselves to be intellectually superior and without anything to learn. Therefore, I’ve concluded that our discussion is over.
May the Lord grant wisdom and guidance to us all as we seek the Lord and how best to lead others to Him.
Good thoughts, Martin, as always. I’ve always heard the “love of many will grow cold” passage used to suggest that our love of God as revealed in the eschatological prophecies would wane. I think you’ve applied it more accurately. Loren
Who said this storm was a rebuke from God? Who said it represents His wrath/judgement upon the people on the east coast? Who says the many of those who’ve lost homes or family members were all wicked? What if God chooses to rebuke you for some sin? Should we not pray for you? Love you? Care about what happens to you? Your destiny?
How do you square your thinking with passages like the following?:
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect” (Matt. 5:43-48).
Thank you for your post Elder Weber. It just reminds me that we Adventists need a healthy dose of balance in our eschatological perspective. We tend to overemphasize God’s judgment at the expense of his love and compassion for sinners. And that is not healthy at all.
I think that when we are faced with current events which relate to prophecy that we tend to go to two extremes. We can go to one extreme which takes the position that “all we need is love,” as the old song used to say. Let’s just show our love and acceptance to everyone in a non-judgemental way and work to bind up the wounds. We’ll love them into the Church, but if they don’t come, that’s OK, too. Then there is the opposite extreme where we see this as a judgement from God, so we want to beat everyone over the head with all of the factual knowledge. I believe that the truth lies in a proper balance between the two extremes. Ellen White told us that in the Last Days that many of the great cities would be destroyed as God would gradually withdraw His protection from them because of the degree of wickedness on the earth. These events ARE warnings meant to awaken people from their spiritual slumber before it’s too late. But we also need to remember the parable of the Virgins which showed that even those who would be saved were slumbering. So these events are allowed by God to awaken both the wicked and the righteous. Therefore it’s wrong to not preach the prophetic warning nature of these events. However, at the same time, we must never take an “us vs. them” approach to prophecy’s fulfillment. Our God of love is trying to awaken ALL who will listen before Probation closes. And we are called as Seventh-day Adventists to give the Three Angels’ Messages in a loving, but clear voice. We must never forget that God raised us up for a specific reason- we are not just another denomination. Ultimately, it is only as we as individuals have a loving relationship with our Heavenly Father that we will be enabled to give our prophetic message in a loving and proper way to a dying world. It is essential for us to have a supply of the oil of the Spirit so that we can be effective in these Last Days!
The following scripture is giving in Isaiah, in the context of Israel rebelling against God and grieving His Holy Spirit…yet even in their affliction, God reveals Himself as being afflicted..suffering in their suffering…
“He became their Savior. In ALL of their affliction He was afflicted… in his love and his pity he redeemed them; He lifted them up and carried them ALL the days of old.” Isaiah 63:8-10 (NAS)
I really appreciate Martin Weber’s focus, especially when Jesus fulfilled many prophecies about His suffering so HE could be made like us in EVERY way, as He took on humanities flesh and blood because of our sins… all too often we are to focused on being “right” instead of being in relationship with people, coming close to them and getting to know their needs, so we can minister to them, earning the right to earn their trust… we often reverse Jesus’ model of ministry and then wonder why people are not interested in what we are sharing. We can begin with our need to be right and have others agree with us, as opposed to Jesus doing more healing than teaching, ministering to people who were hurting, while we do far more teaching than offering the healing of Jesus Love. This spirit also rushes to judge anyone who focuses on building relationships, creating a very negative picture of God, which ends up helping the enemy reinforce his lies about God when we represent God this way.
@Paul Coneff Your careful selection of verses implies an attitude of God that cannot be supported by the whole passage, nor the supporting passages before and afterwards.Is. 63:10- Yet they rebelled and grieved his Holy Spirit. So he turned and became their enemy and he himself fought against them.” you also failed to consider Is. 62: 1-6, which establishes the intellectual and spiritual foundation for what comes next.when taken as a whole, the focus of these passages does not support your conclusion about Jesus’ model of ministry. He did nothing, ever, to ‘earn’ anyone’s trust. In fact, He often flaunted His obstinate refusal to do things in a way that would earn Him the respect and trust of men. Jesus Himself defined His ministry as, Joh 14:31 … the world must learn that I love the Father and that I do exactly what my Father has commanded me. and Joh 10:37 Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does.The implications of those verses is significant.
Profound and true. Sometimes I feel we have been playing king of the spiritual mountain so long that we don’t get it that God was through Christ reconciling the world to Himself. While disaster happen, and I have no doubt that there is a connection with the Godless trend of our society and the rejection of God which results in Satan being at liberty to wreck more devastation, but God absolutely grieves over even the falling of a sparrow how much more He must grieve at the chaos that ensues from tragedies such as this awful storm.
@Pastor Randy Brehms I have searched the Scriptures for the passage that says God *grieves* over the falling of a sparrow, but cannot find it. The only passages I have found referencing this concept are Matt. 10:29, and Luke 12:6, and neither of them say that God *grieves* over the demise of a sparrow, nor do the passages offer any indication of such an emotional response by God.
I am not comfortable with the statement “Indeed, some Sabbatarians prefer to argue about the 7th day versus the 1st day of the week rather than come together to rest in Christ through corporate worship and fellowship. For them, the Adventist sanctuary message is more about computing 2300 symbolic days than it is about a literal place of refuge in our great high priest.” What worries me is this statement is coming from an Adventist writer who graduated with a DMin and has influence over others who read his articles. There are so many other ways to address being loving Christians, why pull out the “rest in Christ” statement? Throws up all sorts of red flags to me!
@Randy73 I’m not an Adventist – but that was one of the statements that I also saw as a ‘red flag,’ which is what prompted me to reply in the first place. there is much in this article about which I could find theological ‘soft spots’.
I am not sure which of us is splitting hairs, but Jesus who was God manifested in flesh used the comparison between humans and sparrows when He said “Luke 12:6 & 7 Are not five sparrows sold for two farthings, and not one of them is forgotten before God? [7] But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows. Matthew 10:29 – 31 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. [30] But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. [31] Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.. The implication is that the care of God is expressed even to sparrows, and are we not more valuable than many sparrows. Does it say He grieves? Is such a consideration a silly sentimentalism? perhaps, but that is the kind of God I can admire and love because He is concerned about even the death of a little bird. He takes note. Sorry if that stretches your concept uncomfortably.
Actually, Mr. Brehms, I wonder if my concept of God stretches **your** concept uncomfortably. 1. In these aforementioned passages, Jesus is talking to His own disciples. 1a. This discussion addressed whether God grieves over people *who He is rebuking* — not those who are seeking His instruction and correction. 1b. Your application of the context of Scripture, is therefore, utterly inaccurate in relationship to the * very specific* topic of this discussion. Neither the quoted passages, nor the entire context of Scripture, can support your interpretation of God’s emotional reaction to death or the suffering of people **who He is rebuking** !! Neither can your concept of God cannot be supported by the entire context of Scripture. 2.. Does God suffer when His righteous ones suffer at the hands of the unrighteous? Yes – which is actually what the Luke and Matthew passages addresses, becasue that is to whom the passages are spoken. (ref. Mt. 10:22, and Luke 12:1, & 4-5) 2a. Does God grieve or suffer when He Himself must correct His own people? I don’t think so, based on Heb. 12:5 – 12 2b. Does God grieve or suffer when He Himself must rebuke those in gross and intentional rebellion? If you can find 3 verses or examples (, as all things should be established by 2 or 3 witnesses) that indicate this specifically, consistent with the entire context of the passage used, please show them to me. You have inserted your own emotional content into the passage, without regard to the actual meaning of this discussion, or the content of the specific passages. Because passages in Matt. & Luke are meant to be encouragements to the Disciples for the upcoming hardships they will face, they cannot be applied ‘generally,’ to all people, under all circumstances, and therefore, should not be used to support the otherwise Biblically-unsupportable concept that God grieves over the suffering of those whom He rebukes for their rebellion. Scripture says our SIN grieves the Holy Spirit – but I cannot find any Scripture that supports that viewpoint that God suffers or grieves at that suffering of those **whom He rebukes,*** who required that rebuke because they had hardened their hearts against Him. That is the point I have be trying to communicate since I began this discussion.
could someone please instruct me on how to visually double space, for clarify, between paragraphs for these posts? I keep trying various methods, and can’t determine what works. thank you.